Taking down cdlc

fripponomic · April 15

Hey all

Unleashed2k · April 17

The report system will be modified and changed overall in the future if all goes to plan. I haven't focused on it because I have been working on other parts of the site. Please give us time to work on a solution.

Thanks.

Lukkeren · April 18

On 4/15/2025 at 12:01 PM, fripponomic said:

Hey all

After another cdlc of mine again was reported and will be removed by bot, I'm thinking about taking down all my cdlcs by myself. I rechecked the reported custom and still think it's good playable. Wrong or missing notes in the solo is just not true. The fhps in some chords are not correct, ok, but this is not not a big issue since it's for playing and not learning. If the sustain notes are touching following it is just like played, legato, also no issue in my opinion.

Those were the reasons for the report.

I share all my cdlc work here since 10 + years, put many hours work in it and many of them I created because it was only junk available for the needed song or someone wished it. I definitely don't rework any of them, since I don't have that much time for it and am not any more up to date with all those programs.

I'm currently playing in two bands, working as a guitar teacher for more than 25 years, so you can trust my charts.

And now, if someone report any cdlc it is up to the charter to check and repair them. Why not still write it in the comments first?

Sorry, but noone pays me for all those hours. If my stuff is not good enough anymore, I just will take them off and save some cloud space for myself.

The links to my customs then will not work anymore.

I'll give you a few weeks to grab any of the rest of my cdlc before I remove them.

Bye bye

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I honestly 100% agree with everything said here. So far haven't experienced that many reports, but the few i've gotten have made me annoyed enough by this. The bar should be that a chart isn't game breaking and that it is reasonably accurate. The bar should NOT be as high as it is right now. It's ruining a lot of the fun i'm having with charting myself. And as fripponomic wrote, no one pays us for all the freaking hours we put into charting. I love charting and helping out in the community, but if my chart can't have smallest, tiniest issue anymore without being accepted when i spend my free time on them, i'm honestly starting to be in the same boat. This is a great community run by great people and i hope the modifications and changes mentioned in this discussion is in the not so distant future.

Rodman · April 15

Those reports are none of my bussiness.

Just don´t do it - we would lose a lot of loved CDLCs and more importantly you as a rock in the comunity.

Rod.

Lukkeren · April 19

9 hours ago, enfantterrible said:

The opinions of the author and those who support them are entirely valid, and I don't wish to inquire into the details of the debate. I simply want to add another variable to consider:

Personally, I'm immensely grateful for the new standard, as everything that's been released lately is significantly more fun to play and feels much closer to an ODLC. I honestly wouldn't like to see things go back to how they were before.

I'm sure many players have felt the same way recently.

I think it's great that more people chart better with the new standard. But when the new standard also brings reports to charts that don't really deserve it, it's a really big problem. For example, a cdlc i uploaded yesterday was reported for sliding issues and fhp issues. I played through it and streamers played through it and the consensus was that a report for the chart was pure bs as the issues were so small and the chart so playable that a comment or a heads up would've been far better. A report for that chart was highly unfair and now it's stuck with a red flag linked to actual bad charts until it's approved. And that's what feels very unfair to me as a charter, after hours upon hours spent making something for the community, for free.

drand · April 16

I see you have over 147,000 downloads, a big impact on a relatively small community!

Hope you feel some pride in that, a shame to see your work erased and you leave the community in response to criticism from a few.

fripponomic · May 13

Is this a joke? Next report is the cdlc 21st century schizoid man doesn't have spaces between the words. Is this kind of issue really any problem? That's just mean-spirited.

enfantterrible · April 19

The opinions of the author and those who support them are entirely valid, and I don't wish to inquire into the details of the debate. I simply want to add another variable to consider:

Personally, I'm immensely grateful for the new standard, as everything that's been released lately is significantly more fun to play and feels much closer to an ODLC. I honestly wouldn't like to see things go back to how they were before.

I'm sure many players have felt the same way recently.

Shroud · April 19

As a bass chart user, there are only a few things that I consider real dealbreakers:

- out of sync charts

- charts that are just copy-pastes of the main groove and completely ignore all the variations

Even factual errors in notes and rhythm don't bother me that much because I know how to fix them. That's also the case for notes length and slides, but I don't usually care enough to fix them at all.

But an out of sync chart is unplayable and requires a significant amount of work to fix it myself. And downloading a complex chart only to find that the author didn't bother to enter the variations throughout the song is appalling and irritating, as again it requires enough work to fix that compares to making it from scratch.

I certainly wish to see red flags for such CDLC so that at least I could check out WHY they were flagged and then decides if it bothers me or not. Checking all comments for every single CDLC in case someone mentioned issues without reporting is not nearly as practical. On the other hand, I certainly wouldn't want a CDLC to be taken down automatically because of a report: staying visibly flagged is enough, also because if the author doesn't want to fix certain issues maybe someone else will. Even a non-starting CDLC might be easy to fix if someone looks into it.

Sniper Reload3d · April 19

17 hours ago, ErikOfEngland said:

reported for not being in E standard

Removing a chart based on it not being in E standard is just ludicrous, absurd, nonsensical, ridiculous and absolutely foolish removal reason. There are many, many songs and charts that are not in E standard, it does not take that long to retune a guitar. It is either laziness or fear to not retune.

ErikOfEngland · April 19

1 hour ago, firekorn said:

I'm not sure which CDLC @ ErikOfEngland are reffering to but I find no chart that have been deleted for such reason in any of the report.

Apologies for the confusion. I deleted my own Sleep Token chart as it was flagged as incorrect tuning. I did it in B standard and have since done in it Drop E also but the flag was for it not being charted in E standard. I now know I can reach out to mods to discuss flags and stuff further. Appreciate the help. No more deletions from me. Onwards and upwards!

ErikOfEngland · May 13

Without spaces as in, "thereisnospaces" kinda thing?

I know 2 streamers that do multiplayer and they also sing along. I was asked to add lyrics to my older charts but it's a lot to go back now. I'm trying to add them where I can though. Mostly only for those 2 individuals but still. No spaces may look a bit cramped.

fripponomic · May 13

none of my cdlcs have lyrics, except one. It's in the title only. About 10 years back I can't remember the reason for this, maybe the tile was too long for the tool, idk.

But I definitely won't fix this. I guess it's time to take all off.

GoatHerd · May 14

2 hours ago, firekorn said:

@ GoatHerd Can you point us toward cases of BS reports? We do reserve the right to action users that abuse report but that's not something we've seen as necessary so far given what we've seen. If we missed something there, feel free to tell us.

I'm not sure what prevent you from making your content available on CF or what kind of penalties you think are too high currently but if you were to expose the problem clearly, I'm sure we could work out solutions to make as many users happy as possible.

Ok, just 2 examples. Got a report on a Billy Idol song, Dancing With Myself. Basically, the rhythm guitar doesn't play for a few bars in the track and the dude reporting that thought it was strange. Had a nice back & forth with the guy (a nice person) and demonstrated to him that yes, rhythm guitar doesn't play for 8 bars. He was also complaining that the guitar tone was too loud. Though not ideal, all guitars have a volume knob, and he could have used that. And I don't feel it's a reason to make me waste an hour+ revising the track, with all the negative feelings associated. Example #1

Just finished revising a Madness track that got flagged for some very minor note details on the bass. Basically, a few little slides. Example #2

I'm serious, I don't feel comfortable adding tracks to my list, because I feel all the onus & pressure is on the Charters. You guys need to make the person reporting feel some kind of responsibility. We don't get paid for this, as I'm sure admin doesn't either and I very much appreciate the work you guys do. But I don't have the time to rush over and keep having to save a track from oblivion every time someone who plays it for free doesn't think it's perfect. I'm just a dedicated amateur here.

GoatHerd · May 14

I think the standards are a cool idea, but you guys are trying to impose a professional quality standard on amateur work. Charting is done out of love and not for money. Maybe create 2 chart categories, one that adheres to the new standard and accepts the reporting and one that is more lax, where people can submit tracks w/out lyrics, or missing a solo that was too hard to chart. And where people can request fixes the old way.

Or maybe require you to have published at least 10 charts before you can flag anything.

As for "everyone has been demanding this" I have helped create and run a very successful online gaming service with online championships that 15 years ago was serving 140,000 peer-to-peer games a day. People ask for stuff without thinking of all the implications, and often don't even know what they really like or not. CF has a ton of charts. And it would have much, much less if only perfect charts were accepted. Do people really understand the trade-off? I doubt it.

JamesPrestonUK · May 14

I've just received three bot messages warning me that three of my customs are about to be marked as abandoned. These "complaints" had previously been resolved with the admins. Come on, sort it out!

JamesPrestonUK · May 14

3 minutes ago, Emmy-Dell said:

And you know there have been instances like this in the past where there are hiccoughs with the system and it will false flag things occasionally. If the chart does not have a report flag, it should not be removed/ abandoned. (I'm pretty sure I've said that to a couple of your charts before)
We do apologise for the inconvenience.

As someone who spent 20+ years developing software applications, I feel your pain. Apology accepted

GoatHerd · May 15

8 hours ago, firekorn said:

We do understand that there's a trade off and that it'll slow the publish rate of content but that's something we are okay with at the moment. As for having two different categories, it's a logistical nightmare, a dev nightmare and we just don't have the ressources for such idea. We are afterall doing it for free on our spare time and some solution are out of reach sadly.

My eternal gratitude for the Admin & coding you guys do. I know it's very hard, and probably a lot of the feedback is negative because people only think of providing feedback when they don't like something. I'll say that many improvements in the last 1,5 years (at least) have been very good, and I for one do appreciate them very much! And like you I'm also a TRUST fan (I studied in a French school in Brazil).

ErikOfEngland · April 19

I took a chart down recently because of a flag. Sleep Token reported for not being in E standard. I get it. Flags must be fair though.
I spend days on all of my charts and it does suck to get a report but I kinda thought this was the plan? Set a standard and we all stick to it?
I'll not delete another but I will fight reports when unfair going forwards. I manually do everything. Go above and beyond for every chart.
If the bar is "it doesn't crash" I can stop trying so damn hard with mine.

Sniper Reload3d · April 19

1 hour ago, firekorn said:

He did report a CDLC that was in Eb std but with a missing capo

Well, that is indeed something that warranted being brought to attention and fixed. (and as stated was repaired).

Sniper Reload3d · May 13

38 minutes ago, fripponomic said:

About 10 years back I can't remember the reason for this, maybe the tile was too long for the tool, idk.

But I definitely won't fix this. I guess it's time to take all off.

There really should be a moratorium for charts nearly a decade old. It was a different time, different tools,

Should things be brought current? Maybe with a new chart if someone else wishes to replace it or do a "better" version. The charts have already been and existed for years.

Requesting new charts that are being made be held to this standard is fine, and I am all for better charts, but to go back through the library and deadline or remove a chart unless it has an egregious / grievous / glaring error or bug in functionality is a different story.

Just my 10 cents because my 2 cents are free.

firekorn · May 14

@ fripponomic I'll reiterate what I've said on the report discussion itself :

A comment back from 2016 already mentioned the issue. It also has been something that has been mentioned in the earliest set of rules for content to be properly named both in game and on the ignition record. It won't result in deletion of the content.

This would take you literally a minute to fix but you instead chose to go for another round of discussion around the topic.

You know the options we offer, we can discuss this calmly or you can keep on complaining about report. The choice is yours.

@ Sniper Reload3d What you say is already what we do. Content isn't deleted for that but that doesn't mean the report is wrong and there was rule back in 2014 that people already had to uphold and we will keep on enforcing the rules of the time the chart was made. I don't know how else to say any of that. Our process and rules have changed already.

Hikikomori · May 14

It seems just people are more aware and more active in reporting. Probably because we've increased the tools available for reporting and information on what is reportable. Last year and honestly the last 5 years, all I can remember hearing from the community was how many CDLC with errors and other issues exist on CF and how hard it was to find quality charts, let alone perfect charts on CF because moderation was relaxed on the quality of charts. This is the pendulum swingback from those years of comments from the community to a more strict state. The pendulum is already swinging back again to a more relaxed state, as Unleashed and the rest of us on the moderating team have improved and changed systems so that it doesn't just delete reported cdlc among other features.

If the title being `21stCenturySchitzoidMan` instead of `21st Century Schitzoid Man` won't get fixed as an easy 30 second fix; how would any other charter with way more egregious errors, ever take responsibility to fix their charts? They'd look to you as an example not to fix their charts. That line of thinking is the exact reason many have given to not update charts. "X chart exists which is worse than mine, so why would I make mine better?" Its seems silly but if we have less charts that can be used as an excuse, maybe the quality of all charts in general can improve because attitudes improve along with it. Its an opportunity to be the change you want to see in the world.

I sure have some old charts that need fixing and I'm taking the time. I've even had people offer help which I've gladly taken. Mage_Gage helped me redo the first Good Tiger album that I had done during my infancy of charting. I've gotten better since then and my charts post 2025 are at 2025 standards. It sure is a long process but myself and many other charters have worked to improve that and created more tools like the #creators channel and #chart-feedback channel in Discord to help charters be the change we want to see.

This is the reporting that should have been done 10 years ago, and it just feels bad that its happening now because a charts been up for years ( even with comments asking for fixes ). Its only gonna feel worse the longer its up without a report and then gets reported. As firekorn pointed out, since the earliest rules the issues listed were things that were reportable.

firekorn · May 14

@ GoatHerd Point to me example of what you are referring to and talk to us about it when you see it and we can sort it out together.

That said, anonymous reporting aren't all that frequent at this point and admin and mod are always aware of the user that made the report so we can act if it is ever needed.

I'll repeat again that deletion isn't a thing, we've put in places alternative options and deletion only really happens for broken link at this point.

I'd be curious what you feel would be more appropriate penalties too. We are open to alter how we work and handle things but users also need to reach to us if they feel things aren't working so we can work on a solution.

firekorn · May 14

@ GoatHerd Can you point us toward cases of BS reports? We do reserve the right to action users that abuse report but that's not something we've seen as necessary so far given what we've seen. If we missed something there, feel free to tell us.

I'm not sure what prevent you from making your content available on CF or what kind of penalties you think are too high currently but if you were to expose the problem clearly, I'm sure we could work out solutions to make as many users happy as possible.

JamesPrestonUK · May 14

I've pulled a few of my charts because of BS reports. I must admit that my desire to create charts has waned considerably since this reporting feature went live.

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Taking down cdlc

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fripponomic

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