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Tunings *just* out of E. I get drop D and Eb and other non-standard tunings have a purpose, but why the **** would you tune an eighth step out of E or similar??!!

 

Christ, the Beatles made 300+ songs in E. THEY didn't seem to have any problems.

 

If you're going to do a song in ALMOST E just do the ****ing thing in E and have done with it!!!!!!!!!!

 

On a Steam Summer Sale high, I bought the Oasis pack yesterday and 3 of the 5 songs are in tunings JUST off of E. Assholes! Never would have bought it had I known. 

 

I feel better now. Thanks!

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For the love of god, people, no bitching/whining/complaining. If you don't like something, either state it constructively...or keep it to yourself.

 

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A440 is standard "concert pitch" in North America and some of Europe, but a large portion of European countries still use A442 as their standard concert pitch.

 

For the most part, it all depends on the style of music you want to play.  German symphonies use A443, Baroque music uses A415.

 

Basically it's all about fine tuning the pitch to suit your tastes.

 

There's a lot of math involved if you want to know the technical or theoretical reasons why some artist's choose different E standard tunings, but I don't want to explain it all.  You can google it if you really want to bore yourself to death  :huh:

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Off-tunings should be pitch corrected to proper before being made into RS DLC.  It's easy to do using Adobe Audition's pitch shifter. 

  I just sent a pitch-corrected "Layla" track to the guy who made the first version...the original is about 38 or 39 cents sharp from A-440. 

 

  Most of the time, it's due to tape speed in older recordings. 

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Off-tunings should be pitch corrected to proper before being made into RS DLC.  It's easy to do using Adobe Audition's pitch shifter. 

  I just sent a pitch-corrected "Layla" track to the guy who made the first version...the original is about 38 or 39 cents sharp from A-440. 

 

  Most of the time, it's due to tape speed in older recordings. 

 

 

Oasis does it on purpose, to better match Liam's voice with the music.  He sings slightly sharp on some songs, and the guitar tunings reflect that.  If the original recording was made in an "off" tuning, then it should be left that way.  

 

Oh, and I forgot to add this before.... The Beatles used LOTS of alternate tunings based off of E standard.  

 

Read this if you want a better explanation about why some artist's use different pitches of E standard:

http://guitarcipher.blogspot.ca/2012/04/normal-0-false-false-false-en-us-x-none.html

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Off-tunings should be pitch corrected to proper before being made into RS DLC.

 

That's one opinion. Others, including mine, may vary.

 

  Most of the time, it's due to tape speed in older recordings. 

 

You need to do a lot more research before making statements like this.

 

Have a read of this article on concert pitch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_pitch_standards_in_Western_music#History_of_pitch_standards_in_Western_music

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Interesting article, Hootzager. I can't recall seeing ever seeing any Beatles notation in anything other than "standard" A440, so I assumed that's what they played and recorded in. And their stuff seems to play well in A440, so I don't know what's going on there....

 

I agree that songs should be kept in their original tuning. Even if it is annoying to change tuning while playing.

 

The non-440 Oasis tunings are 443, 449, and 450. 

For the love of god, people, no bitching/whining/complaining. If you don't like something, either state it constructively...or keep it to yourself.

 

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Interesting article, Hootzager. I can't recall seeing ever seeing any Beatles notation in anything other than "standard" A440, so I assumed that's what they played and recorded in. And their stuff seems to play well in A440, so I don't know what's going on there....

 

I agree that songs should be kept in their original tuning. Even if it is annoying to change tuning while playing.

 

The non-440 Oasis tunings are 443, 449, and 450. 

 

A lot of the times it gets missed in Beatles' recordings because it was mostly Lennon that liked to play in a different pitch.  Since most of their early work was recorded in mono, the two layered guitars (one in A440, one slightly higher) tend to cancel each other out.  That's why most notation and covers are done in A440.   Most people can't audibly hear the difference on the recordings.

 

And yes, anything done in a different pitch of E Standard will sound fine done in A440, if everything else is done in the same pitch.  

 

Keep in mind, the difference between A440 and A450 is very slight.  It's, obviously, less than a half step difference.  For instance, Eb tuning has a pitch of A311.  But play along with those Oasis songs with your guitar in A440 and it will sound "off".

 

 

It's pretty technical, but there's a chart on this page that shows the different frequencies of each guitar tuning:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_pitch_notation

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Off-tunings should be pitch corrected to proper before being made into RS DLC.  It's easy to do using Adobe Audition's pitch shifter.   I just sent a pitch-corrected "Layla" track to the guy who made the first version...the original is about 38 or 39 cents sharp from A-440.    Most of the time, it's due to tape speed in older recordings.

 Oasis does it on purpose, to better match Liam's voice with the music.  He sings slightly sharp on some songs, and the guitar tunings reflect that.  If the original recording was made in an "off" tuning, then it should be left that way.   Oh, and I forgot to add this before.... The Beatles used LOTS of alternate tunings based off of E standard.   Read this if you want a better explanation about why some artist's use different pitches of E standard:http://guitarcipher.blogspot.ca/2012/04/normal-0-false-false-false-en-us-x-none.html

 

Holy crap, that just may have been the most informative, make me rethink everything I thought I knew about guitar article I have ever read. Not only does my brain hurt, but I'm now questioning the way I play every classic song I can think of. Might explain why some of them never seemed quite right. Also I was gonna say your gears get grinded when you are granny shifting instead of double clutching like you should,,,. Sorry, the smartass in me could not be restrained.

 I'm Allergic To Stupidity. I Break Out In Sarcasm.

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Off-tunings should be pitch corrected to proper before being made into RS DLC.  It's easy to do using Adobe Audition's pitch shifter.   I just sent a pitch-corrected "Layla" track to the guy who made the first version...the original is about 38 or 39 cents sharp from A-440.    Most of the time, it's due to tape speed in older recordings.

 Oasis does it on purpose, to better match Liam's voice with the music.  He sings slightly sharp on some songs, and the guitar tunings reflect that.  If the original recording was made in an "off" tuning, then it should be left that way.   Oh, and I forgot to add this before.... The Beatles used LOTS of alternate tunings based off of E standard.   Read this if you want a better explanation about why some artist's use different pitches of E standard:http://guitarcipher.blogspot.ca/2012/04/normal-0-false-false-false-en-us-x-none.html
Holy crap, that just may have been the most informative, make me rethink everything I thought I knew about guitar article I have ever read. Not only does my brain hurt, but I'm now questioning the way I play every classic song I can think of. Might explain why some of them never seemed quite right.

 

 

Yeah, music theory is quite mind-boggling....  

 

Some people are content to just play music (which is absolutely fine), but I'm a thinking man and I like to know a bit about what's going on.  When I first started playing I could never figure out why some songs didn't quite sound right either, so I decided to learn a little theory.

 

Oh course, most of it is a scrambled mess in my head.  Sometimes, the more I think about the theory side of it, the more confused I start to get.

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I just counted them up:

 

On RS2014, I have 37 Beatles songs, ALL of which are in A440.

 

I also have 13 Oasis songs, 8 of which are in A440, the other 5 are in 4 different tunings (443, 449, 450, 451).

For the love of god, people, no bitching/whining/complaining. If you don't like something, either state it constructively...or keep it to yourself.

 

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Off-tunings should be pitch corrected to proper before being made into RS DLC.

 

That's one opinion. Others, including mine, may vary.

 

  Most of the time, it's due to tape speed in older recordings. 

 

You need to do a lot more research before making statements like this.

 

Have a read of this article on concert pitch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_pitch_standards_in_Western_music#History_of_pitch_standards_in_Western_music

 

 

  I'm aware of concert pitch and A-432, alternate tunings,  and all that jazz.

I'm also intimately familiar with recording technology and have been in the music industry for nearly 20 years.  Not as a salesman at your local GC, but as a luthier in the 90's  and manufacturer of guitar accessories for the last 15.  Chances are, somebody here has some of my products.

 

  Quite a few older songs are mis-pitched due to tape speed, and Layla is one of the most widely known examples.  My point was that song that are slightly mis-pitched, like Layla, should (IMO) be pitched proper for something like this so it doesn't sound so wonky. Layla is not 1/2 step down, nor 1/2 step up.  It's   38 or 39cents off, which sound AWFUL if you're trying to play along with it on a standard tuned guitar.  It makes it much easier to learn a song when it's in pitch with you.     That's all I'm sayin'.

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If you've ever worked with reel-to-reel tape, then you'd understand why tape speed becomes an issue (I don't think it's the tape so much as the machine used, but from my experience, tape stretches a bit, which changes things too). So I'd wager a guess that the overwhelming majority of "de-tuned" songs are the fault of this, not a choice by the artist.

 

This would be different for a band like Oasis, who probably never recorded on tape.

 

 

I know that some guitarists experiment with different tunings. But it's really impractical in a live setting, unless you're some mega-band and you've got your own personal tech standing by to take care of your various tunings. So again, I'd wager a guess that most guitarists who expect to play their music live stick to one standard tuning or another, or limit the number of tunings to the number of guitars they bring onstage with them.

 

It's probably a personality thing. Me, I HATE having to retune my guitar. Just hate it. It's even worse on the banjo, because re-tuning is a huge part of playing old-time music. In Rocksmith terms, it makes no sense having to retune to A443 or something similar. It's easy to correct a song to A440 (since they were probably played that way in the first place).

 

But it's easy enough to deal with -- I simply don't play non-standard tuning songs, unless I really really want to play that song.

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If you've ever worked with reel-to-reel tape, then you'd understand why tape speed becomes an issue (I don't think it's the tape so much as the machine used, but from my experience, tape stretches a bit, which changes things too). So I'd wager a guess that the overwhelming majority of "de-tuned" songs are the fault of this, not a choice by the artist.

 

This would be different for a band like Oasis, who probably never recorded on tape.

 

 

I know that some guitarists experiment with different tunings. But it's really impractical in a live setting, unless you're some mega-band and you've got your own personal tech standing by to take care of your various tunings. So again, I'd wager a guess that most guitarists who expect to play their music live stick to one standard tuning or another, or limit the number of tunings to the number of guitars they bring onstage with them.

 

It's probably a personality thing. Me, I HATE having to retune my guitar. Just hate it. It's even worse on the banjo, because re-tuning is a huge part of playing old-time music. In Rocksmith terms, it makes no sense having to retune to A443 or something similar. It's easy to correct a song to A440 (since they were probably played that way in the first place).

 

But it's easy enough to deal with -- I simply don't play non-standard tuning songs, unless I really really want to play that song.

This is how I deal with it, too.

 

Though while people are talking about songs that are off-pitch, I'll throw AC/DC's It's A Long Way To The Top in. The guitars and bass are tuned to be in pitch with Bon Scott's bagpipes. And Satchel did something similar when I saw Steel panther play at the Corn Exchange in Edinburgh, and they had a piper on stage for Community Property.

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This has turned into quite the discussion....

 

I just counted them up:

 

On RS2014, I have 37 Beatles songs, ALL of which are in A440.

 

I also have 13 Oasis songs, 8 of which are in A440, the other 5 are in 4 different tunings (443, 449, 450, 451).

 

 

Yeah, but those 37 Beatles songs are customs uploaded by users here, not official DLC submitted by Ubisoft, so it should be expected that they be in A440.  As I said, they are all still E Standard tunings, even at A442 or higher/lower.  It's the pitch that is different, not the tuning.  I know it can be hard to wrap your head around, but pitch and tuning are not the same thing.

 

Almost all (I don't have time to actually verify this now) of the Oasis songs that Noel sings are in standard A440, because he can sing better.  Liam sings sharp, hence the higher pitches on the songs he sings.  You can read about it in a lot of Oasis interviews, especially towards the end when they were in-fighting.  Liam and Noel argued about who got to sing what song all the time, and a lot of it centred around the fact that Liam thought he was the shit and Noel thinks he can't sing.   Yes, I used "thought/thinks" purposefully here...  If you haven't had a chance, check out Beady Eye (Liam's new band, which is more like Oasis 2.0), and have a listen to Noel's solo album.  Liam sings in a higher pitch because he can't sing any other way.

 

 

 

 

  Quite a few older songs are mis-pitched due to tape speed, and Layla is one of the most widely known examples.  My point was that song that are slightly mis-pitched, like Layla, should (IMO) be pitched proper for something like this so it doesn't sound so wonky. Layla is not 1/2 step down, nor 1/2 step up.  It's   38 or 39cents off, which sound AWFUL if you're trying to play along with it on a standard tuned guitar.  It makes it much easier to learn a song when it's in pitch with you.     That's all I'm sayin'.

 

 

It's actually easier to play along when you're in tune with the song you're trying to copy, if you're playing along with it.  Obviously, if you're playing the song by yourself, play it in whatever pitch you feel comfortable with.  But if you're playing along with Liam Gallagher, and you play in standard A440, you'll sound flat.

 

Songs only sound "wonky" if you're playing along with them in a different pitch.  In that case, it's you who sounds "off" (though again, it's only the pitch), not the record.  It's up to you to match the song you're playing along with, not the other way around.

 

And yes, Oasis is a mega band with a lot of tech's to help sort out equipment.  But remember, "tuning" to A443 is as simple as tweaking each string ever so slightly.  Most experienced musicians can tune to Eb Standard by ear, because it's a simple half-step change.  And think about how little you have to move each machine head to hit Eb.  On a good guitar with proper strings, it's between 1/4 and 1/8 of a turn of the machine heads.  A443 is like moving the machine heads just enough to feel it move.

 

Also, for what it's worth.... Most older songs (40's, 50's, 60's) that are accidentally off-pitch are a result of transferring the recording to vinyl.  It is important to note (or support) that some songs are accidentally off-pitch, but most modern songs that use higher/lower pitches of A440 are done on purpose.  It's very popular amongst British bands.

 

 

Anyway, glad to see some good discussion here on this topic.  I'm going on vacation for 10 days to the Land of No Internet, but I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes while I'm gone.

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I know pitch and tuning. For whatever reason it was done/exists, and whether it was done through simply up-tuning the instruments or through studio manipulation, the fact remains that in order to play Oasis' five-pack of songs one must use three different just-off-E tunings. And if he really had a sweet spot you'd think all the up-tunings would be the same up-tunings. Seems a bit precious of them to me. "Dude, this would sound so much cooler is we shifted everything up a 16th!"

 

 

And when you play along with Beatles songs, whether in RS or along  with tapes/cds/albums (I used to play along with albums before cds even existed), you're in E standard all the time, baby. Same thing with 95% of rock and pop music, including RS DLC songs. You need drop D, Eb, D#, D, open G or whatever fine, but if you're that close to A440 -- the standard of Rock/pop music -- just do it!

 

The more I think about it, the more I like Womac's shifting idea. I'm generally a purist, but I am not a fan of tiny off-tunings. Somewhat like Vega and Dazed, I rarely, if ever, play the songs I have in off tunings. I'll tune to Eb and play every song I have in Eb, and do the same for drop D, but I generally don't it for one or two songs in 444 or whatever.

For the love of god, people, no bitching/whining/complaining. If you don't like something, either state it constructively...or keep it to yourself.

 

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If you're going to do a song in ALMOST E just do the ****ing thing in E and have done with it!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Please NO!.. Songs should in my opinion always remain as close to the original as possible.

 

 

I was aiming that statement at rock/pop artists who make songs that are just off of E, not at CDLC creators/Ubisoft who create the customs. As pointed out above, sometimes non-A440 recordings are a conscious choice, other times it's wonky technology, apparently.

 

Also as I mentioned above, I'm on the fence about shifting songs that were originally released a bit off of A440 E. On the one hand, I'm generally a purist; on the other hand, if it's not in A440, I'll probably never play it. I haven't played my three new off-tuned Oasis songs yet, in fact.

For the love of god, people, no bitching/whining/complaining. If you don't like something, either state it constructively...or keep it to yourself.

 

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Even for a good singer, one can be better (or more comfortable) with different pitch depending on what he needs to sing. using a lot of different pitch depending on what you're going to sing or even play can really change the way the songs feel (i'll never listen to dream on by aerosmith at A440). It's not always a singer need, but can be simply better for the song in itself like most orchestra like to play at A442 or 443 because it sounds better (and it does in some cases).

 

There's so many reason to choose a different pitch than A440 than simply put it back to it just to ease yourself with tuning seems like heresy to me. ;)

 

Anyway if you do a custom using a different pitch and you want to put it back to A440, do both please, so that everyone can choose what he wants to and not have to bear with one personal preference.

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Open G Tuning (0 5 7 5 3 4) is the oldest known tuning used in published music in America.  This tuning was clearly Buddy Holly's favorite ("Not Fade Away" and "Words of Love").

 

 

Wait...what?  I did Not Fade Away in E standard.  Now I'm going to have to try it in open G.

 

 

Yeah, some songs are meant to be played in open tunings, but that's another issue.

 

As a singer myself, I wonder about the whole "Liam sings sharp" thing. My songs always tend to stay in the keys I'm comfortable singing in -- but within that (rather limited) range, I'll be darned if I'd bother tweaking the pitch. And besides, I'd never actually considered Oasis to be a group of accomplished musicians. I always thought they were just another pop band.

 

Another thing: how did bands deal with playing with keyboards? (Although it seems to me some of the old organs had tuning knobs? I can't remember, sold my Farfisa a few years ago.)

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If you're going to do a song in ALMOST E just do the ****ing thing in E and have done with it!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Please NO!.. Songs should in my opinion always remain as close to the original as possible.

 

Chances are, you won't be able to tell the difference.

 

  I'll give you a heads up.  For a long, long time, people who were uploading music to Youtube and got caught by the content-boogery used to pitch the song slightly different to get around it.  They would also speed up or slow down the tempo slightly.  I'll be you never even noticed. 

 

 I can't find a Layla at A440, but here's a Layla at 432 (supposedly)...can you really tell the difference?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjglwVtKDHk

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So, Autographs Turn Up The Radio is one of those off pitch songs,, I don't remember the exact tuning but it doesn't matter. What I was just thinking of was the Led Zepplin song that,, well Page recorded the solos in a separate session, at home or something and the pitch is slightly different, due to a slight tape speed difference, no way you will EVER get that one to sound the same. And the song always sounded off to me because of that,, man it's slight but it sounds weird.

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So, Autographs Turn Up The Radio is one of those off pitch songs,, I don't remember the exact tuning but it doesn't matter. What I was just thinking of was the Led Zepplin song that,, well Page recorded the solos in a separate session, at home or something and the pitch is slightly different, due to a slight tape speed difference, no way you will EVER get that one to sound the same. And the song always sounded off to me because of that,, man it's slight but it sounds weird.

 

 

  You're thinking about Heatreaker.  Solo was recorded on a different guitar, at a tifferent time, and in a different studio as well (IIRC)

Cool thing is that the multitrack files I have for Heartbreaker contain the oriignal solo not heard on the album.

 

But, it IS possible, actually.  Since the Heartbreaker solo is a stand-alone section with zero background music, just that section can be pitch corrected without affecting the entire song. 

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If you're going to do a song in ALMOST E just do the ****ing thing in E and have done with it!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Please NO!.. Songs should in my opinion always remain as close to the original as possible.

 

Chances are, you won't be able to tell the difference.

 

 

My opinion on this subject actually has nothing to do with that. I believe that to change the pitch even slightly is messing with the art and in my book that sucks.

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