Personal Indicator/Sign for disliked CDLC

[Haquyato]

Hello CustomsForge, I've read a lot about the controversy regarding the lack of rating system. I just need a way to mark/hide/ignore the CDLC I've tried and disliked (marking/ignoring certain uploaders would be nice too) . Is there a way to do it? If not, I'd like to suggest adding such functionality. This way if someone uploads the same song in a different "style", we can only see what is new and avoid what we've already tried.

 

I have nothing against people trying their best and failing to produce accurate songs, I just don't want them to clutter my search page if it can be helped. Thanks.

[Teckie]

We will keep all of these suggestions in mind, as there are great arguments supporting both sides.

 

I won't go into detail about exactly how we're going to manage CDLC quality in the future, but there will be a system in place to do this, which will include input from our members.

[Zelden]

+1 to this, but it'd be great if you could extend it to ignore by creator.

 

There's a particular DLC creator that consistently make a high volume of low quality DLCs that spam up the page and it's a pain to have to filter through or to end up downloading a track only to realise it's another terrible release.

 

I came to the forum with the intention of making a post to suggest this so I'm glad to see I'm not the only one.

[Mostly Rancid]

 

There's a particular DLC creator that consistently make a high volume of low quality DLCs that spam up the page and it's a pain to have to filter through or to end up downloading a track only to realise it's another terrible release.

 

a pain ? really ? moving the mouse wheel a bit or clicking next page. Jeez man you need to relax more if thats a pain , you'll live longer.

 

Have you tried posting comments on the actual custom about "low quality" to let the uploader know?

[Haquyato]

 

There's a particular DLC creator that consistently make a high volume of low quality DLCs that spam up the page and it's a pain to have to filter through or to end up downloading a track only to realise it's another terrible release.

a pain ? really ? moving the mouse wheel a bit or clicking next page. Jeez man you need to relax more if thats a pain , you'll live longer.

 

Have you tried posting comments on the actual custom about "low quality" to let the uploader know?

 

Adding more filtering options will not upset any users, it will only make certain users happier. I don't understand why your solution is to "deal with it (pain)".

[firekorn]

1. Maybe one day this user will post a good cdlc and you'll miss it because of his previous "mistake"

 

2. Comment are also a good place to post your complain (the more details and explanation the better for the author)

 

3. Updated custom also come on top of the search at first, they might actually became good enough for your standard (or not).

 

When someone upload something, we have no way of knowing what kind of quality it is.

 

We know it is an issue for user and for CF in general too and we have already identified some user to be "problematic" but there's no rule as of now concerning this and we are talking about it internally, it just takes time for us to think and do all that is needed.

[Mostly Rancid]

Adding more filtering options will not upset any users, it will only make certain users happier. I don't understand why your solution is to "deal with it (pain)".

The reason to deal with it is because we are a community ( and a good community ). The majority of users here are only too willing to help if they can and I'm sure a high percentage only want to better the community. There are ways of making comments that don't upset the uploader ( it's not always possible as we are only human ). Personally if I upload a custom , I welcome comments telling me what's wrong with it. It is far better to let the user know that there are mistakes in his custom than to just filter them out. This is how a community works , you don't ostracize someone for making mistakes if they're never told they are making mistakes. How are you supposed to learn if no-one lets you know what's wrong.

[Haquyato]

 

Adding more filtering options will not upset any users, it will only make certain users happier. I don't understand why your solution is to "deal with it (pain)".

The reason to deal with it is because we are a community ( and a good community ). The majority of users here are only too willing to help if they can and I'm sure a high percentage only want to better the community. There are ways of making comments that don't upset the uploader ( it's not always possible as we are only human ). Personally if I upload a custom , I welcome comments telling me what's wrong with it. It is far better to let the user know that there are mistakes in his custom than to just filter them out. This is how a community works , you don't ostracize someone for making mistakes if they're never told they are making mistakes. How are you supposed to learn if no-one lets you know what's wrong.

 

 

You make some good points. And I agree that communication is the key. However, all I want is the freedom to choose between trying to improve the community and ignoring certain parts of it. It's my understanding that feelings of uploaders are valued deeply in CustomsForge, and if my request is too outrageous I'd simply have to live with the way things are. This is but a suggestion after all.

[Mostly Rancid]

 

 

Adding more filtering options will not upset any users, it will only make certain users happier. I don't understand why your solution is to "deal with it (pain)".

The reason to deal with it is because we are a community ( and a good community ). The majority of users here are only too willing to help if they can and I'm sure a high percentage only want to better the community. There are ways of making comments that don't upset the uploader ( it's not always possible as we are only human ). Personally if I upload a custom , I welcome comments telling me what's wrong with it. It is far better to let the user know that there are mistakes in his custom than to just filter them out. This is how a community works , you don't ostracize someone for making mistakes if they're never told they are making mistakes. How are you supposed to learn if no-one lets you know what's wrong.

You make some good points. And I agree that communication is the key. However, all I want is the freedom to choose between trying to improve the community and ignoring certain parts of it. It's my understanding that feelings of uploaders are valued deeply in CustomsForge, and if my request is too outrageous I'd simply have to live with the way things are. This is but a suggestion after all.

Dude , it's not up to me what changes round here. I just thought your suggestion would be detremental to the community so I chimed in. I didn't think it was an outrageous request but I did think it's was an uninformed request.

[Teckie]

I'll add to this my personal opinion (which doesn't necessarily reflect the direction that we're taking).

 

For a community of our size to grow effectively, we have to give all members equal opportunity to submit content and have it seen by others. I would like to see us take on the same structure as YouTube, where submitted content can be Liked, Disliked or Flagged (if it breaks the rules). I believe that "blocking" other users should be reserved for something more than a browsing inconvenience (e.g. they are harassing you).

 

If you think that someone is posting poor quality content, Dislike it and provide that feedback, or report it if they are blatantly abusing the privilege of submitting CDLC. Filtering takes away that constructive feedback and segregates content, which is something I don't believe we can mess up.

 

What if they improve? You're missing out on their content and they're missing out on your viewership. All in the interest of making tables slightly smaller in size.

 

Edit: And hey, there's nothing saying we can't implement something like directly-visible ratings, so you can sort by that. I just don't think we should be completely omitting someone's work from others.

[Haquyato]

I'll add to this my personal opinion (which doesn't necessarily reflect the direction that we're taking).

 

For a community of our size to grow effectively, we have to give all members equal opportunity to submit content and have it seen by others. I would like to see us take on the same structure as YouTube, where submitted content can be Liked, Disliked or Flagged (if it breaks the rules). I believe that "blocking" other users should be reserved for something more than a browsing inconvenience (e.g. they are harassing you).

 

If you think that someone is posting poor quality content, Dislike it and provide that feedback, or report it if they are blatantly abusing the privilege of submitting CDLC. Filtering takes away that constructive feedback and segregates content, which is something I don't believe we can mess up.

 

What if they improve? You're missing out on their content and they're missing out on your viewership. All in the interest of making tables slightly smaller in size.

I understand, and perhaps blocking users is indeed unnecessary. What I really want is something similar to "add to collection" button for disliked CDLC. It can still remain in the search page, but that way we'd at least know what we've already tried and disliked.

[Mostly Rancid]

 

I'll add to this my personal opinion (which doesn't necessarily reflect the direction that we're taking).

 

For a community of our size to grow effectively, we have to give all members equal opportunity to submit content and have it seen by others. I would like to see us take on the same structure as YouTube, where submitted content can be Liked, Disliked or Flagged (if it breaks the rules). I believe that "blocking" other users should be reserved for something more than a browsing inconvenience (e.g. they are harassing you).

 

If you think that someone is posting poor quality content, Dislike it and provide that feedback, or report it if they are blatantly abusing the privilege of submitting CDLC. Filtering takes away that constructive feedback and segregates content, which is something I don't believe we can mess up.

 

What if they improve? You're missing out on their content and they're missing out on your viewership. All in the interest of making tables slightly smaller in size.

I understand, and perhaps blocking users is indeed unnecessary. What I really want is something similar to "add to collection" button for disliked CDLC. It can still remain in the search page, but that way we'd at least know what we've already tried and disliked.

 

 

So you'd like a reminder letting you know that you've already dl'ed a file but disliked it?

[Zelden]

There's a good point being made about feedback for a user being better than just filtering out their content, and I agree to an extent.

 

On a couple of occasions where there are minor problems I feel more than comfortable to point out a small error or make a suggestion to use a different tone and provide an example.

 

My main point for complaint is when users upload a high volume of bad DLC in a short period - sometimes you'll check the page to find the same guy posting 16-18 tracks at once, with a couple of different uploaders mixed into the list - which can be easy to miss when you're trying to avoid a large block of "bad" DLC.

 

In some cases where there is a lot wrong, I'm at loss at what to suggest. I'm simply a user, not a creator, so I'm not in a position to make suggestions on how to make better tracks because I have no idea about the process. One could even say "what gives you the right to criticise when you make nothing yourself" - and to be honest I can't disagree with that, ultimately people that are trying to provide CDLC are ultimately just trying to provide for others.

 

I do disagree however that filtering will mean that I miss a "good" DLC by a user. Typically if I've got to the point of actively avoiding downloads because of the quality, it's very very unlikely that I'll download one to give it a try. Actually the only way I end up realising it's the same users initially is because I've accidentally downloaded a track and looked up the user after I found it unplayable.

 

 

I look forward to however community mods are going to introduce rating, and given the responses so far I'm pretty optimistic that time is being take to implement a system that encourages more people entering the CDLC pool whilst improving the overall quality of user submissions.

 

In the meantime maybe it's time that I take a look at the CDLC creation guide and give it a go myself before I throw anymore stones from my greenhouse.

[firekorn]

My personnal opinion is that quantity is always at the cost of quality. CF started when Smithy Anvil died and the goal at the time was to allow everyone to share without limitation to a certain extent (rules do state that broken CDLC is a big no, etc.) and to avoid any rating as this was the downfall of SA (unliked songs never approved because of bad moderation).

 

Now to put in place a "i didn't like it" sort of thing that would hide the cdlc would also mean that this will be reset everytime the CDLC is updated but if quality is still not up to your standard, who would you blame then? :)

 

And feedback doesn't need to be detailed (sometimes it can also be usefull for other users too). Many times bad CDLC have more thanks than actual complain about the quality...

 

And one thing is that high quality isn't rewarded at all, charter are rewarded proportionnally to the popularity of the songs, my best CDLC aren't the most dl ones, the most dl ones are the most known songs. But i would think maybe comment would be better on the good CDLC : NOP :) comment are inexistant most of the time especially under 200 dl.

 

The thing is that i see charter that do the minimal work required for a decent chart get way (way) more recognition because the song they make are just more known and that is really deceiving. I won't call name or anything but i've seen in too many occasion wrong tab being praised just because the song is "appreciated". That's not CF fault and either the charter ones, it's the way community and popularity work. I find it a bit sad but that's how it is.

 

I'll admit that as a charter the community doesn't give me any incentive to put 10+ hours of work into a CDLC to make it as close to official song as possible and that saddens, i just hope i can help make those things change as part of the team but it's a complicated and long discussion and it also needs to be reasonable. My ego isn't the center of the universe here :D

[papillon]

I have nothing against people trying their best and failing to produce accurate songs, I just don't want them to clutter my search page if it can be helped. Thanks.

 

4 posts and complaining about the work of others cluttering your search page? Are you serious? :)

What about giving feedback to the people of all the customs you're considering having errors that they can fix them? And if a tab is completely wrong if you write it constructive without offending the creator of the custom would be a good feedback as well.

 

If you want to have some kind of rating or quality management you'll not get a usable result with a button or any other rating system - the problems are what do you want to rate (the criteria) and then you need people participating in it. If you add a rating from 1-10 for a custom it will not reflect anything (people rate their favorite songs as firekorn wrote which is subjective) and if you create a more complicated system people will not use it at all (or not properly).

From the amount of customs it's impossible to test all of them by a group of experienced charters or guitarists.

 

If you dislike customs from some people give them feedback or write yourself a list and don't click on the dl link.

 

I look forward to however community mods are going to introduce rating, and given the responses so far I'm pretty optimistic that time is being take to implement a system that encourages more people entering the CDLC pool whilst improving the overall quality of user submissions.

As you said blocking users or filter them is no solution and a general rating will never work - there're were attempts for this on avil and it was a fail. The only working system was having a few rules and that people reported customs which a mod checked it to move these to an approved section.

 

I see your and the OPs point and as a suggestion to filter out customs which are unplayable add a button to "dislike" them (without showing the result public) and if there're customs with more than x votes test these. Ask the charter to fix it take them down. I don't think that it will be a success (too few people giving feedback by clicking the button), but it's a simple counter and you could add it for an evaluation test.

 

 

to avoid any rating as this was the downfall of SA (unliked songs never approved because of bad moderation).

This statement isn't correct, but it's not worth to start any discussion on it as it's gone and in the past.

[Haquyato]

4 posts and complaining about the work of others cluttering your search page? Are you serious? :)

- - -

If you dislike customs from some people give them feedback or write yourself a list and don't click on the dl link.

I don't understand why posting 4 times to communicate with others who have posted in this thread is something you find hard to believe.

 

If I see that almost all the cdlc a charter made is intolerable, I'm not going to bother commenting on every single song he/she's uploaded and ask him/her to re-do everything. I'd rather mark them down (the songs, not the user) so when I do look for said songs in the future, I'll know which songs I've tried and did not like in an instant. Instead of depending on memory. Hell, I might even give some feedback if I know which songs have issues by marking them.

 

Also, I can only respect effort, not the work itself when it's simply a failure. :D

[GetTheLedOut]

@@firekorn and @@Teckie I agree with just about everything you guys said. 

IMO it boils down to two things: 

1) Having a system that is inclusive, but also rewards quality
2) Encouraging both engagement and constructive criticism - which sort of ties into the above point.

When you reward quality, charters are (hopefully) going to be driven to improve and learn. Which means we should have some way of quantifying a quality custom, in a way that isn't easily corrupted (i.e the SA rating system).

Regarding engagement... when I started charting over at SA (we had to walk to school uphill, in the snow, both ways - and bread was a nickel :)), I learned a lot through simple constructive comments that were made in the threads of my CDLC. And the positive comments were equally motivating.

I don't know what the number used to be, but now, I get about 1 comment for every 100 downloads. We have have a MASSIVE amount of users, but a very small percentage that post semi-frequently (let alone submit customs). IMO our size is a resource that we're not putting to use. Perhaps by encouraging people to comment, and dare I say it, rate CDLC... we could bring some of these users into the fold.

In order to prevent tampering, perhaps there would be an x # of characters required for your assessment and rating score. With a "flag" button, so that users can report reviews that aren't constructive. It may not be perfect, but something along those lines might encourage people to engage more, while also rewarding quality.

Anyway, just a few (sort of) quick thoughts. @@cozy1

 

[Mostly Rancid]

@@firekorn and @@Teckie I agree with just about everything you guys said. 

 

IMO it boils down to two things: 

 

1) Having a system that is inclusive, but also rewards quality

2) Encouraging both engagement and constructive criticism - which sort of ties into the above point.

 

When you reward quality, charters are (hopefully) going to be driven to improve and learn. Which means we should have some way of quantifying a quality custom, in a way that isn't easily corrupted (i.e the SA rating system).

 

Regarding engagement... when I started charting over at SA (we had to walk to school uphill, in the snow, both ways - and bread was a nickel :)), I learned a lot through simple constructive comments that were made in the threads of my CDLC. And the positive comments were equally motivating.

 

I don't know what the number used to be, but now, I get about 1 comment for every 100 downloads. We have have a MASSIVE amount of users, but a very small percentage that post semi-frequently (let alone submit customs). IMO our size is a resource that we're not putting to use. Perhaps by encouraging people to comment, and dare I say it, rate CDLC... we could bring some of these users into the fold.

 

In order to prevent tampering, perhaps there would be an x # of characters required for your assessment and rating score. With a "flag" button, so that users can report reviews that aren't constructive. It may not be perfect, but something along those lines might encourage people to engage more, while also rewarding quality.

 

Anyway, just a few (sort of) quick thoughts. @@cozy1

 

 

 

Imo rewarding charters is not going increase quality unless it's financial which is obviously a non starter.

 

I also think the only way of encouraging comments and ratings fairly is rewarding downloaders.The only way I can see this happening is by capping downloads and the rewards being more downloads.

 

I think ratings should be colour coded ( traffic lights ) . Red - Not Playable.  Amber - Playable but needs work. Green -  Playable , with an added dropdown box listing faults :- sync, bad tab , no tone etc.

 

Just my opinion :)

[GetTheLedOut]

@ I don't mean a literal reward. I was speaking in the figurative sense.

[Mostly Rancid]

@ I don't mean a literal reward. I was speaking in the figurative sense.

It's a tough call whatever the powers that be decide.

 

I just read your sig :lol:

[papillon]

I don't understand why posting 4 times to communicate with others who have posted in this thread is something you find hard to believe.

 

It's no offense, but instead of communicating with these people posting "bad" cdlc you asked to block or filter them out. I'm with GTLO - there's a learning curve and if you're good at computer science but not as good as a guitarist you'll probably not recognize that a tab has too many errors (users are creating a custom to learn how to play guitar and they can't play the songs at their level). If you would have asked these people or add a comment in their thread, but all of these were ignored, I would understand it, because it's a community and no dl area where you can expect all customs are perfect.

 

A simple filter and rating with a few stars wouldn't increase quality - maybe a charter with "poor quality" learns his/her skills and you'll get your favorite songs charted in future. If you discourage them, they'll leave or stop to share their work with you. To be honest, I don't have an idea for solution which would work without having additional workload to the active people. It's always in a community - you'll find everything in a range from perfect to needs some work.

 

I understand the problem but the first post isn't the best approach. Don't hesitate to "bother" in a polite way in the threads where you think that the custom should be improved. These comments are helpful for the charters and others dl them. With a number from 1-10 errors will not be fixed, if the charter isn't aware that something is wrong with his custom.

 

One more thing - where would be the benefit if everybody has a "personal filter" for qm? Think more as a community to improve things and less in a microcosm.