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Best way to record With an Electro-Acoustic?


DevXen

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I just got my first Electro Acoustic guitar today, I got it mainly so I could record with it. Does anyone have any suggestions?

 

I did plug it into my Marshall Amp. and it sadly removed the acoustic sound. and made it sound like a full on electric, I was kinda disappointed.

 

But i'd like to record it, likely straight to the PC. so any advice on programs, setup, settings, etc, would be great.

 

 

thanks,

 

-Dev

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Well... I recorded my western acoustic guitar by using the output of my amp. it is a dedicated acoustic amp though that makes it sound exactly like the original - no distortion at all.

But buying a new amp just for this might not be the best option, right?^^

 

Shouldn't you be able to record with a microphone, provided it is a very good one? - might be less expensive than the amp :-)

Check out my easy tutorial on how to add a metronome to your CDLC: Mute the original music, play only with the metronome and find out how good you really sound! Also: Find CDLCs that have the metronome enabled!

 

Want a USB-Footswitch that you can use to control the tone selection and all the menus in Rocksmith? Check out Rodman's Tutorial and my additions to that!  Footswitch_Logo.png

My CDLCs: Devin Townsend - Life, Deep Peace, Ih-Ah!, Deadhead; Farin Urlaub - Ok

My ideas for new features in Ignition, e.g. filters for Multitrack CDLC and Metronome CDLC.

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The Rocksmith Cable can be used as a direct sound input for any recording software you use, it might worth the try to simply take that signal directly...

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Well... I recorded my western acoustic guitar by using the output of my amp. it is a dedicated acoustic amp though that makes it sound exactly like the original - no distortion at all.

But buying a new amp just for this might not be the best option, right?^^

 

Shouldn't you be able to record with a microphone, provided it is a very good one? - might be less expensive than the amp :-)

 

The problem with a Mic here, is there a lot of ambient sound here in my house, all over the place, it's ridiculous. from PC fans to the furnace to the water heater, to running water in the pipes.

 

 

The Rocksmith Cable can be used as a direct sound input for any recording software you use, it might worth the try to simply take that signal directly...

 

That is a good idea, i'll have to try it. I Lost my recording software, when my PC Crashed a few months ago though, I know i had one that was free. and I thought open source, i'll have to try to find it again. I have a friend that uses audacity, and likes it quite a bit for recording live bands at his bar. But i think he has to have M-Audio hardware for that. i'm not sure, but he does have 2 M-Audio input cards that it works with.

 

Since I got rocksmith, i've wanted to record with the RockSmith Sound Engine. some of those tomes sound incredible. I've though, why not go into the RR of a song, then record straight through the audio output. or even make a song that has preset amp changes, and put an empty audio track, and record that way.. though now I have an electro-acoustic. that's not such a big deal anymore.

 

Also I have a GNX4 Workstation guitar pedal. - it is a drum machine, expression pedal, effects processor and a 8 channel recorder all built into one. though I haven't really used it much, since I haven't been able to fine tune it to any tones that i like. but then i'm no pedal professional. haha. but I was thinking that maybe an option for a direct recording as well.

 

 

and from my years of booking bands, people would often block the sound hole, with a music CD. to prevent feedback.

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My personnal setup is a Behringer ucg102 usb guitar input which I use with Native Instruments guitar rig5, guitar rig has 2 tape decks which record a WAV file when selected, it can be clean or with effects depending on your selection. You can record on tapedeck1, play it back and jam on top, the UCG102 works great with Rocksmith (no cable patch) and is just recognized as a sound card and can be picked up for £10 on Ebay and its a fantastic piece of kit.

 

NI guitar rig is great , it has all the amp, effects units and preset models you could wish for and plugs into Ableton, Acid, Cubase, Pro tools and DAW's and is stand alone also. I believe the Rocksmith guitar models are based on "Amplitube" which does the same thing as Guitar rig. My personnal favourite is Guitar rig though for ease of use and layout. You just need ASIO4ALL installed, the guitar rig software and Behringer software, then Select Behringer in you Windows playback/record options, plug it in and your good to go.

 

One thing I intend to look into is VAC virtual audio cable to see if its posible to take the audio stream from Rocksmith to a DAW or even windows recorder?

 

Just putting my 2 cents worth in. Have a search.

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If you use Bandicam to record a "video" of you playing in Rocksmith, there is an option for Bandicam to save a separate .wav of only the audio.  You could do that then import the .wav into your audio program.

 

Audacity is free and very highly regarded, I have the luxury of Cubase though...

 

There are also lots of free plugins for Audacity (including pitch changin software).  I've never tried it (other than to conver the multitrack .ogg files to individual .wav files) to record anything though.

 

 

On the subject of recording your electro/acoustic though, I would suggest working out how to record more than one source simultaneously.  Maybe a mic recording the "acoustic" guitar (you can get directional mics that will cut out a lot of backgorund noise) and a line recording from the guitar jack output.  Then blend the sounds in your audio program to taste.

 

I've used the RS cable to record my guitar before, and although it works its pretty poor quality.  Its fine in the context of Rocksmith, or quick overdubs, where you are fitting the (thin) sound into an already busy mix, but it sounds pretty meh on its own.  You are never going to achieve (imo) a full guitar sound recording with the RS cable.  It's $20 for a reason :)

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I've used the RS cable to record my guitar before, and although it works its pretty poor quality.  Its fine in the context of Rocksmith, or quick overdubs, where you are fitting the (thin) sound into an already busy mix, but it sounds pretty meh on its own.  You are never going to achieve (imo) a full guitar sound recording with the RS cable.  It's $20 for a reason :)

Stop the bulshit there. Rocksmith cable is perfect for what it do, analog to digital converting. There's absolutely no modification over the signal that goes through the cable. If the signal is bad, it's not because of the cable. Of course an electric guitar without any kind of amplification will sound meh on it's own but that's perfectly normal...

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@PC Plum Okay!

 

Here's the test wav file : https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1ZKYtpB0vu2aEM5NzV2dmNHNTA/view?usp=sharing

 

There's 6 part separated by silence. I've only used 2 different recording system which are the following :

 

A. Rocksmith cable connected to the Phones output of the Zed10 Allen & Heath where the guitar is connected on the Guitar 1 input

B. The USB Record out of the Zed10 Allen & heath where the guitar is connected on the Guitar 1 input

 

I've used Audacity where each recording device are set on different audio line. The project is available on demand for anyone to check and the only thing i've done is to amplify each track with only parameter to keep the highest peak at -1.0db on both track.

 

And to be clear you need to correctly find 4 out of 6 to consider that it's not just lucky guesses.

 

If someone wants to do a test wav file with another hardware, be my guest.

 

PS : i'm using an Ibanez GSA60 with the same pickup and tone for the whole test too.

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I thought that the comparison was with a guitar plugged straight in using the RS cable?

 

I mentioned hardware to give the example that using dedicated hardware is better.  You are also saying that using hardware other than a single RS cable is better than using a single RS cable alone as an input.

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I actually have a UCG 102, I never use it because you need to hook up speakers/headphones to the out put of Behringer to hear it/use it.  I prefer using the RS cable because you can have the output through your normal pc speakers.

 

I also have a Tascam US-1800, however, which has DI inputs for guitar/bass.

 

One time I couldn't be bothered pulling out the Tascam and setting it up so I used the Rocksmith USB Adaptor (what the RS cable shows up in Sound Devices) as the recording source.

 

It was pitiful against the recordings I could get from the Tascam.

 

 

Yes the RS cable works, and is a great bit of kit for the cash, but it does not sound great.  I mean, who uses the clean sound even in Rocksmith?  The first thing you do is run it through virtual amps/compressors/reverb/delay etc.

 

Even in Firekorn's example he is using an Allen and Heath mixer, and using the guitar input of the mixer.

 

 

Anyway, here is a clean recording using a Focusrite Scarlet 2i2.  It wasn't me playing.  I'm not wanting to start a debate on whether this sounds better than Firekorn's example, because I wanted a comparision between this and recording straight into the pc using the RS cable - which I might do tonight if I cba.

 

https://drive.google.com/#folders/0Bw_JHBuT3gUAbDBkRkYyWThJSjQ

 

 

 

And I actually just read your post properly Firekorn...  I'll give the test a go tonight :D

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The Allen & Heath is just a mix table, it doesn't add any effect since i didn't used the FX input for the test. Even the EQ on the table is not used for the comparison.

 

And i know that nobody uses a direct signal from the guitar but in any good daw and with some software like Guitar Rig, you can apply your effect on the RS cable signal directly. There's no need to have any kind of hardware first.

 

Any way for those who want to try the test i've created quickly something to collect the answer : https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Ao09RJnaOW3_DyBtsxg-d2eBDfAcKEnP3NQGPq54y6c/viewform?usp=send_form

 

PS: that would also allow me to compare directly how many people fail or pass the test so don't hesitate to try it. The more answer the better it is for accurate data.

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I'll take the test tonight at my own pc, I'm really interested now :D

 

I can't really understand your argument though?  You are saying that there is no difference in using the RS cable than anything else?

 

Then why do some ADCs cost $1 and some ADCs cost £30,000?

 

Why do studios spend millions on boutique cables, interfaces, DACs, ADCs, valve DI boxes etc etc, when they could just hook up a $20 RS cable and get the same result?

 

 

I also dissagree that your mixer is not doing anything.  On the contrary it's doing an awful lot.  You are using a dedicated guitar input, which has specialised components (Allen and Heath are high quality products), correct impedences and it is balancing and attenuating the guitar signal.  The guitar input also has a regulated power supply.

 

In fact, your own link says

 
These newly designed inputs have been crafted with the aim of replicating the sound of a classic guitar or instrument tube pre-amp in a combo or head amp. An extremely high input impedance ensures loading on pick-ups is minimal and a Class A FET (field effect transistor) circuit powered from 48V is employed to give the valve-like gain stage. There is a gain “Boost” switch associated with the guitar inputs which boosts gain by 26dB to cater for instruments with very low level outputs and the overdrive characteristics of the guitar inputs are very similar to a valve (tube) circuit, being asymmetric and soft. All this makes for a wonderfully natural sound to be reproduced from the instrument, full of warmth and character

The Hi-Z input is probably the most important part of a DI guitar chain, and why people spend £1000s on products like this

 

http://www.manley.com/mcore.php

 

Your argument is basically saying that there is no difference between the RS cable and that (with all effects off)...  it does not compute.

 

 

 

 

Your test is testing the difference between the analogue to digital conversion of the RS cable versus the analogue to digital conversion of your Allen and Heath.  It is not using the RS cable as a true input i.e. your guitar plugged into the pc via the RS cable and only the RS cable.

 

I noticed a difference in quality between using the RS cable and my Tascam without any effects added, just the dry signal.  Same guitar, same pc.  There were no dynamics in the RS cable recording and a very thin and uneven EQ profile.

 

I will have a listen tonight though, I'm definitely interested in testing my ears.

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the "only" thing the Zed10 do is adjusting the whole level in db. I'm really comparing both ADC with this test.

 

I did it that way because i don't have any pieces of hardware to go from Jack to USB other than the Zed10, so i would not do a fair comparison by going through the cable directly via the guitar versus the Zed10 cause the Zed10 allow me to adjust the volume of the recording chain (which can also be done post recording in any DAW).

 

And as i said if anyone wants to do it with another pieces of hardware be my guest!

 

The cable is basically just an ADC which allow Rocksmith to analyze the signal, IF the ADC wasn't good enough and diminished the signal quality, i higly doubt the pieces of software analyzing the signal would do any good job but it does.

 

on the point of prices, there's a lot of bullshit going around on music related component.

 

Like this article saying that SSD are better for listening than a classic HDD and you can also find a lot of reviews of this kind for cable which cost 100 times the prices of a standard cable which would do the exact same job. But in the same time there's some other people that are trying to break all those myths and bullshit like Ian Shepherd which is a must read for anyone interesting in mastering and recording.

 

On the hand of ADC and DAC quality, there's also an article which is an amazing piece refering to multiple video going in depth on why a ADC and a DAC can't do much harm on a signal : https://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

 

For the final point, recording with the RS cable will most of the time required at least a piece of software to apply good effect to it (simulated amplification/distortion etc.) and that's where the RS cable can be short handed. It's just an ADC.

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It's not just an ADC its an active DI.  It must offer load to the guitar pickups or there would be no sound.

 

When I critisiced the RS cable I was using it as a direct input - guitar to RS cable to pc.  I stand by that criticism, it works but it does not sound good (to me).  I would advise people to spend a little cash on a decent interface, like the Zed 10 or Scarlett.

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There's absolutely no power going from the PC to the Guitar using the RS cable or you have a clear problem in your system...

 

Passive pickup create voltage (aka sound) out of the vibration of the metallic string inside the magnetic field created by the magnet inside the pickup, the variation of the magnetic field being transformed in volt by the coil (usually copper wire around the magnet).

Active pickup works almost in the same as passive but also include EQ/Preamp and other stuff that requires power to function which is provided by a 9v battery in any guitar that i've seen. That's also why an Active pickup can create sound without a 9v battery but with way less power than it would with, because the basics of the pickup being the magnet and the coil, there's no need of electricity to create a signal in the first place.

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Well I'm no electronics student, maybe my termonoligy was wrong.  Active DI no...

 

There is a load though, and SOS says

 

"The output voltage from the source is developed across the input impedance of the destination (often called the load impedance, or simply the load), and therefore the signal voltage is passed from source to destination."

 

"If the input has too low an impedance, the most noticeable effect will be a loss of high end — in fact, even using guitar cables with too high a capacitance can audibly reduce high frequencies (see 'Impedance & Frequency Response' box for details of this effect). The sustain is also affected, giving a 'dead' sound."

 

I'm not going to pretend to fully understand that but I know enough to say that the preamp (in this case the RS cable) effects the sound.  Its scientific, not hear say.

 

Better preamps = better, more accurate sound.

 

 

There is also the question of qualtiy of materials.  While I'd never spend $1000s on a speaker cable, I can quite clearly hear the difference between $1/metre speaker cable and $10/metre speaker cable.  Not every cable (I can't poosibly hear them all), just the stuff I bought.

 

The RS cable is cheap because it has cheap electronics, cheap materials and a cheap preamp.  And sounds it.

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"The output voltage from the source is developed across the input impedance of the destination (often called the load impedance, or simply the load), and therefore the signal voltage is passed from source to destination."

 

"If the input has too low an impedance, the most noticeable effect will be a loss of high end — in fact, even using guitar cables with too high a capacitance can audibly reduce high frequencies (see 'Impedance & Frequency Response' box for details of this effect). The sustain is also affected, giving a 'dead' sound."

 

Just to be clear, yes, the engineer could have, theoretically, done it wrong by choosing a poor component with a low impedance which would alter the signal of the guitar.

 

So i've tested with a multimeter the impedance of the cable (which is the load impedance as described in your quote). The result is around 1000k ohm while the impedance of my guitar is 100 ohm. The load impedance is 10 000 times higher than the impedance of my guitar. At this point we can consider the load impedance high enough to even called it a Hi-Z input. This result can be false since i don't have the correct equipment to do a proper measurement and the easiest thing to do would be to know what exactly is in that cable.

 

From my knowledge about electronic design, There's no need for any kind of preamp in that cable for one good reason, ADC can easily convert very low value of voltage, adding a preamp will do more harm than good in this case. Which lead me to think they don't have any kind of other stuff than a simple ADC i might be wrong or not, there's not the question.

 

We want to know if there's any difference between a signal that passes through RS cable which we can simply consider as an ADC since it's the only things it seems to do from the outside and any other ADC that we have available. For that we can already try to see if the test i've offered point us in any kind of direction.

 

At the moment all the information i have one answer on my test which was simply blind guesses. I also wasn't able to determine any kind of difference while hearing to the wav file reapeatedly. If others people think they can hear the difference, please try it and we'll see if the result we got from that is indicating something (or not).

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Well I can see that you are far more knowledgeable than me, which puzzles me even further why you would be saying such thngs - that the RS cable is as good as anything...

 

I do like (reading about) high end hifi I and do see the same DACs being used in a lot of equipment (Wolfson, Burr Brown), so your theory on DACs/ADCs being similar I can take on board, it must be the rest of the electronics in the piece of equipment making the difference, or the filters being used.

 

But the problem remains in the argument...  you are not using the RS cable as an input in the same way as me.  You have a (high quality) piece of electronics acting as a guitar input/preamp.  Plug the RS cable straight into your pc and record it, then see for yourself the difference.

 

I have answered your form btw.  I was going to open the sound file in Cubase to help me, but I answered with a quick listen to the wav file through my pc speakers.

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ADC are similar but DAC aren't. DAC are far more complicated things to designed because in this case the impedance for exemple need to be as low as possible (which is not as easy as it might seem) and other things.

 

You have completely inversed all the answer, when it was the cable you said it was the Zed10 output and vice-versa by the way which seems to go my way as a result.

 

I can try to do the comparison with the cable directly into my guitar, but i'm certain it won't change a thing but if you are sure you want me to try it, i will.

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It was quite easy to group them together, i just didn't know which was the Zed 10 and which was the RS cable.

 

 

Although, I'm going to have to say it went my way.  There is a clear audible difference.

 

The RS cable is better at ADC than your expensive Zed 10 :D

 

 

Actually they just weren't normalised properly, the ones I identified as the Zed 10 were clearly louder, and actually sounded a little compressed compared to the others.

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That's probably due to my recording settings on the cable itself (which lower the whole level). But it's something easely adjustable to normalized both at the same level, i just didn't take the time (and didn't want to put too much effect) for it.

 

Anyway i think we can agree on the fact that the cable isn't as bad as you said in your first post and it might not worth the money for only recording a guitar, money that you can use on a good guitar effect software.

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Just plug your monitors into the headphone socket of the ucg, or to a mixer, I rate the sound quality on the ucg through headphones or to amp, it has a beefy sound with nice top ends and soulfull in the middle. It's 16bit also!

 

Another trick you can do with the ucg is plug a keyboard headphone output into it and run it through guitar rig for some amazing sounds. All recoded at top quality 8bit 22khz .

 

I tried to post this as a reply but can't work out Quote and Multiquote? 

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The thing I disliked about the UCG was messing with cables to use it...

 

I'm gonna stand by my original statement on the RS cable though.  I think that it does sound pretty meh on its own and I still believe that you are never going to get a full guitar sound using it to record as the single source i.e. guitar, RS cable and pc.

 

I was using the Tascam to record my old bands album, hated getting it out and setting it up all the time to do guitar overdubs, was delighted when I realised I could plug my guitar straight in using the RS cable, quickly started getting the Tascam out again as it sounded much better.  The sound the RS cable was producing could not be salvaged with guitar effects software to the standard that I wanted and could easily achieve with the Tascam.

 

I've also had the privilege of using a $1000 RME interface at a friends house, and the clean guitar sound you can get with that is beautiful.  With my own guitar.

 

A sound that's just not possible to get using the RS cable.  No matter what is said to me, I've heard it with my own ears.  Clear as day.

 

For messing about the RS cable is ideal, but I'd still recommend people to spend some cash in a dedicated interface.  Even $100 interfaces come with Cubase LE, which has some basic guitar effects as well as compressors and reverb.  And there are tonnes of free plugins (yes, I mean legally free) you can get these days for all sorts of audio fun.

 

 

Come on, there's a reason you bought an Allen and Heath interface.  I'll bet there's cheaper interfaces with the same functionality.  I'd wager that you went for the Allen and Heath because it sounded good...

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The allen & Heath is only for my mic and to get a head start to get my own home studio type equipment where a mix table can be really handy. I didn't choose it because it sounded good but for the price and the functionnality of it which was in my budget with enough input and an USB output to get it directly into my PC without having another pieces of hardware which would keep adding to the cost.

 

I actually record my guitar using the RS cable but the guitar signal is going first into a multi-effect pedal mostly because i don't own any software with good enough amp and effect simulation so it's easier and better to go through the pedal first instead of adding bad effect to it later on.

 

I'm also pretty sure you didn't do any kind of real testing between the RME or the Tascam and the RS cable to make sure you weren't biased in anyway (using different audio restitution system can reallu change way more stuff than it seems) which would make me doubt any kind of affirmation you can make about them especially when it comes to ADC which is the most trusted piece of hardware i know in music recording. The problem is in the other way where things get messy quickly...

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