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Line 6 Amps?


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#21
Offline   Puddle Of Mudd

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Fast doesn't only regard to top speed. One would expect a fast car to accelerate fast, turn corners fast due to its aerodynamics and so on. It was just a comparison of an amp being good in "common sense". It was not meant to be all literally taken and head to head compared to an amp being any good.

I don't know what you find to be "Fender style". I have a Super-Sonic 60 and a Triple Recto laying here and I can side by side compare them... the Mesa has more oomph in gain but when set up properly, it can sound like the Fender's Vibrolux clean. That to me, BTW, is pretty much the only good effort of Fender at making an amp as it has a proper gain channel along with its clean. So it is like the best Fender amp you'd compare that Mesa to (if you exclude the 100W Super-Sonic or a few from their 2015 line, also considering that the 2015 models haven't made any noise around guitar communities...)

You CAN select which one of those you want from the Internet alone. The info you need is there. Both the Triple Recto and the JCM 2000 are high watt amps. So if you want something that can output a lot of power, however on the cheaper end, you buy a JCM 2000. If money isn't a concern, you get the Recto. The Orange is not on the same category. You get that as a bedroom amp or so... it's a low wattage amp.

You can tell some about the internal built of an amp as well, I.E, how many of which tubes are used, whether it is hand-made or not and so on... these things aren't actually too hard to understand.



#22
Offline   Chris11

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I have a different option for you. Have you considered a Line 6 Helix?  :) 

I know it's not a traditional amp but the Helix floor model is around 1500 dollars and you can connect direct to the PA so no need to carry amps and cabs.


With the new 2.00 Firmware Helix now has Mark IV amp channels, and Snapshots which is like Scenes that Fractal uses but better. The list of amps, effects, cabs, mics and routing options are too many to list here. And you can load any IR's you wish.  :) 



 



#23
Offline   Puddle Of Mudd

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Is that something like the Polish Taurus Stomp Box? I mean, a pedal processor-alike amp? If so, I really wouldn't spend $1500 on something that does everything via digital modelling rather than tubes... you can do much better than that for that much money.



#24
Offline   Chris11

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It's actually many things in one. It's a digital amp, cab, mic, effects modeller with many routing options and you can use it any way you want with or without an amp direct to the PA. You can get it as a pedalboard or as a rack unit. It has customisable scribble strips, you can assign any pedal you want, rename them, change the ring colours and you know where everything is with just a glance. If you have a pedal that you love you can connect it via the inputs, and use it from the Helix. You can even use it as a sound card for your PC/Mac and record direct to your DAW. There are way too many features to list them here you can check them out by visiting the official website.  :) 


It used to be that digital modelling wasn't that good, but the new units like Line 6 Helix and Fractal AX8 can give tube amps a run for their money. They even react like the real ones when you play. 


For 1500 you will get an amp and cab that are good and you are right. :) But that's only what you get. And let's not forget the size and weight. 

With the Helix you get faithful reproduction of 48 Amps, 30 Cabs (and any IR you wish to load), 91 effects and 16 mics with different placement options for each cab. And they are adding more as time goes by.


If you have the time or mood sometime check out Glenn DeLaune's Helix Presets on Youtube to get an idea. Although it's better to try one if you get a chance, because youtube compresses the sound, it sounds better in real life. Just don't try it with the default patches it's better to make a preset, it takes like 5 minutes from scratch. Yes it's that easy to use. It can be as simple or as complex as you like.


You'll be surprised at how close you can get to the real thing. In a band or a recording situation you can't even hear that it's not a tube amp.  :)



#25
Offline   Puddle Of Mudd

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I'm unsure as to how accurate that can be, I've heard some high end rack amps (one from Line 6) on YouTube and such, and they just do not get to that sweet sound spot of a good tube amp.

For $1500 you can get a tube amp, cab plus an effects box. Not just an amp + cab. Sure, you'll have to carry them but that's what bands do. I don't know of any band with a big name to it that records or plays on a stage with transistor based equipment... and there is a reason for that.

Just like how the top-notch hi-fi setups are tube-based, so are guitar gear. Sorry but I'm not inclined to believe in that. Tubes are still the best sound tech, period.



#26
Offline   Chris11

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Actually you'll be surprised by how many big bands and really good guitar players use an Axe Fx, Kemper and Helix as an amp, effects unit or both, on stage or for recording.  :) 

Vai, Satriani, Petrucci, The Edge, Alex Lifeson and many more have an Axe Fx in their racks and use them one way or another. Helix is the new kid on the block and it is already finding it's way to big stages. Garbage is the latest band to adopt the rack unit, they are completely digital now with no amps and they use it live for guitars and bass.  :) 

I agree with you a tube amp is a tube amp and it's the best sounding. But technology has advanced and the gap right now is so small that in a mix it's really hard to understand which is the tube amp and which is the modeller.  :)



#27
Offline   Puddle Of Mudd

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Personally, I don't listen to any one of those so I wouldn't know. When I said well-known, I was more of regarding to big names that do use high end amps such as Metallica.

I've once tried the Taurus Stomp Box and some other tube amps in a store and I could tell the difference, so I'd say still go with a tube amp regardless...

and honestly, for a 1500 or over people concert, he will want the most sound he can get out of the amp, meaning a tube amp as we both know it. He's only looking at lower end gear because he might not be able to afford Peavey X or Mesa Y.



#28
Offline   DeadlyPower

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Guess this is alot harder than i thought, Ive heard of the helix before but never looked into it



#29
Offline   firekorn

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@Puddle Of Mudd i've seen many band use the tiny terror in live situation. As you and i said before, wattage isn't necessary as you will be mic'ed up anyway on stage.

 

 

When I said well-known

And you dismiss Rush, Steve Vai, Dream Theater and such... i mean come on, you can't say those aren't well known.

 

 

top-notch hi-fi setups are tube-based

No fucking no.... Tube is the worst thing you can use for a Hi-Fi system ever and those who do are just plain idiots who doesn't care about the artist they listen to... But gladly this doesn't matter about guitar rig cause you aren't reproducing a signal, you are voluntarily deforming it to obtain a specific kind of sound and that's where tube can be interesting cause they are indeed changing the signal in way transistor don't really do it.

 

Good modeling can easily recreate those deformation but rare are the actual good modeling amp out there (it's another thing when it comes to VST though but that only matters for the recording).

 

And as always even a modeling system can create sound that the guitarist will like/prefer over some amp.

 

About the manufacturing side, hand made isn't really a sign of quality, it's a sign of price and slight variation in production in the same series, tubes can indeed be a decent indicator but it's only such a small part of the system that if the rest doesn't follow, even good tubes won't make a good sound. Even production in China can be amazing when you look at what's inside of some amp, but it wasn't the case 10/15 years ago. The place where it's build tend to have little to no impact on the quality side nowadays.


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#30
Offline   Puddle Of Mudd

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Yes, Billy Gibbons for example used it if I'm not wrong. Just because you CAN use it doesn't mean it's a good choice, and because you're mic'd doesn't mean it'll perform as good as a higher wattage amp. A higher watt amp will ultimately have way more overhead for a stage performance. Why do you think it's almost always the high watt monsters used on stage, and low watt amps are generally used for home or studio?

I did not all dismiss those bands, they're just not as well known as say AC/DC, Metallica etc. Both those bands used the Triple Recto in past, and honestly, musically I literally hate anything he mentioned. Dream Theater makes music for pathetic losers and Rush is a yawnfest. Even that ironic Puddle of Mudd's music I enjoy more, the band which, BTW, also used Triple Recto in past.

I have a tube hi-fi amp and had / have a bunch of reciever or vanilla transistor hi-fi amplifiers. The tube one blows them out of the water in terms of sound clarity. You clearly have never had a tube hi-fi amp, and the things you mention seem to be just assumptions based upon it...

hand-made is a sign of quality. I've yet to come across a hand made amp that is a junker, as in guitar amps, being hand made is something only boutique manufacturers do. I still don't see China amps "amazing". They're still regarded well below American or even British amps... sure, you can get some good tones out of one. Take the Blackstar HT-series for example, I've seen them on a bunch of concerts of Tesla / Leslie West and couple more bands that aren't on top of my head and they do perform. However, regardless of that I'm sure a good amount of players WILL want non-Chinese components and non-Chinese build given their reputation in terms of SQ and reliability.



#31
Offline   Chris11

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Actually Metallica use Axe Fx in their rigs  :)  You can google it and find info about that. The list goes on from big bands to smaller. Nightwish on their latest tour for example only took their Kempers, and played direct to the PA, no amps at all.


Also I wouldn't dismiss transistor amps so easily, Hetfield uses a Roland JC-120 for years and that is a Solid State amp.  :) 


If you want the most sound for a large gig then the best choice are high end modellers not tube amps. Their volume is louder than a high watt tube amp, their tone is consistent night after night, and the bands can replicate their studio sound perfectly.  :) 


Don't get me wrong, tube amps are great and I love them, but their only advantage is their sound. And the new modellers are so close that it's becoming really hard to justify the cost, maintenance and weight of an amp and cab for live use.  :) 


In the past the cost of a high end modeller was so high that it wasn't even a choice. For example an Axe Fx costs around 3000 dollars. But this year  the Helix and AX8 came out and we are looking at a price point of 1500 dollars.


With the helix you can run your guitar, your bass, even your mic and provide amp, cabs and effects for each one. I can go on but the feature list is way too long. 


As for build quality Helix is made of solid alunimum, it's built like a tank and only weights 6-7 kilos or 14.6 lbs. Even if you have an electronics problem, Line 6 has great customer support and the turnaround is fast.


Having a Soldano, Matchless, Mesa Boogie, Marshall, Fender, Roland JC-120 and many other amp models, your favourite pedal effects and cabs with any mic with the sound quality being top notch for 1500 dollars is unbeatable. And of course you can download for free presets from Customtone or buy third party presets of artists etc. for a really low price.  :) 

And let's not forget that if down the line you want to use a tube amp then the Helix can become the command centre of your whole rig. You can control the amp, you can use it as a guitar and vocal effects unit, you can use it to control any other external pedal and it goes on.


DeadlyPower if you are interested check the official site http://line6.com/helix/

If you want more info join the Facebook Helix User Group at https://www.facebook...helixusergroup/
The members there are super friendly, some are from the Line 6 Helix product team, they will answer all your questions, they help with any problems users have with their presets, they can give you rig suggestions and how to get the best sound settings for a live gig situation. :) 






 



#32
Offline   Puddle Of Mudd

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Are you a Line 6 marketer? Metallica has been using the Triple Recto in their gigs for a while now, you can see that on the 2007 Live Earth London concert as the Rectos are laid down one on top of the other everywhere...

and no, obviously racks do offers lots of watts but that is pure transistor power. Lower watt tube power equals to much higher amounts of transistor-based wattage. Since you mic what is available on a stage, and given that the tubes DO offer higher quality sound, you're going to get better results with tube based equipment no matter what.

Surely you can get everything you want as long as you go all digital. Hell, you might even ditch the amps, stick your guitar to your PC directly and go with virtual amplification, LOL. While I keep the Super-Sonic 60 to V30 speakers and proper pedals like my Fulltone and get cleans your Line 6 stomp box can't even dream of...



#33
Offline   Chris11

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No I have no affiliation to Line 6. I am a Helix owner so I speak from personal experience. I've also used a Kemper and an Axe Fx that friends have and they are also great as I said. I haven't tried the new AX8 though.  :)

 

 

 

This isn't 2007. It's 2016. Metallica rigs have changed, they are using Axe FX since Antartica 2014. You can do a google search if you wish and you will find many info and pictures of their current Axe Fx rigs.  :) 


Also modellers don't have watts, therefore no limitations. They are limited only by the power and quality of the PA system, not by the tubes, mics, placements, watts, cabs and any other technical aspect. Don't forget that if you want you can connect your modeller with a power amp  to your favourite cab and use a mic the traditional way. But direct is easier and far more consistent night after night.


We are not talking here about plugins like BIAS FX. They are good but not at the same level as a Helix, AX8, Kemper or Axe Fx currently.


There are many examples of crystal clear cleans from all these modellers. Vinai Trinateepakdee has some nice clean demos on youtube. Pete Thorn has a nice in depth demo with some cleans and in a song mix situation. In fact Kemper can even profile the same amp that you use and love.  :)   

 

 

Helix and AX8 with IR's can make an electric guitar sound even as an acoustic or classical. Glenn Delaune has a demo of that up on Youtube with his acoustic and classical presets.  :)  And no I'm not affiliated with him either, I reference him as an example because he has nice demos.


These are new products, sure in the previous generation there were sound limitations but now the gap is so small it doesn't even matter only a few can hear such small difference.  :)

And again don't get me wrong,  I'm not against a traditional rig, I love amps and wish I could afford many of them. :) 

But times are changing, now we have options that work just as well and it's getting really hard to justify a traditional rig when at the same price you can get sound quality, faithful reproduction, quantity and consistent tone in the studio, home, or a live situation every time you play.  :)



#34
Offline   firekorn

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and the things you mention seem to be just assumptions based upon it...

It's not assumption, it's science... Hi-Fi system are made for a high fidelity in reproduction of an input signal, something that a tube can't do. It's the same as cable that cost 100$/m it's pure marketing bullshit. The fact that you prefer it means that you prefer to put a blue filter on your TV cause it looks better this way... Weirdly if someone ask for a blue filter for their TV people will laugh but when people ask for a system that alter the sound, people love it (and they actually don't when they do blind A/B comparison).

 

You should read this Audio Myth Buster before starting talking about Hi-Fi system i think but we are going way off topic here.

 

 

the tubes DO offer higher quality sound

They offer different sound which doesn't mean it's higher quality and i'm still waiting for a clear definition of what's supposed to be a "higher quality" sound when it comes to sound creation cause if you keep using things that aren't defined or vision that we don't share, we'll have a lot of issue to debate the subject...


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#35
Offline   Puddle Of Mudd

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I was referring to the rack power amp the modeller would go through, which would be delivering power to it and would generally be transistor-based.

I don't see very many guitarists around forums or IRL pick those things you talk about over tube amp setups, so like I said, I'd say a tube based solution is still superior, and I really don't think that ANY modeller can get me that gain of my Triple Recto at tight.

I think you're just trying to justify your own purchase of paying $1500 for a modeller here. If you play at home and if you can carry a rig around for gigging, then by all means getting a "traditional" setup as you speak would be far better off.
 

 

 

 

and the things you mention seem to be just assumptions based upon it...

It's not assumption, it's science... Hi-Fi system are made for a high fidelity in reproduction of an input signal, something that a tube can't do. It's the same as cable that cost 100$/m it's pure marketing bullshit. The fact that you prefer it means that you prefer to put a blue filter on your TV cause it looks better this way... Weirdly if someone ask for a blue filter for their TV people will laugh but when people ask for a system that alter the sound, people love it (and they actually don't when they do blind A/B comparison).

 

You should read this Audio Myth Buster before starting talking about Hi-Fi system i think but we are going way off topic here.

 

 

the tubes DO offer higher quality sound

They offer different sound which doesn't mean it's higher quality and i'm still waiting for a clear definition of what's supposed to be a "higher quality" sound when it comes to sound creation cause if you keep using things that aren't defined or vision that we don't share, we'll have a lot of issue to debate the subject...

 

Tell me how a tube can't do "high fidelity" reproduction of an input signal, when that is exactly what it does its best at. Do you know what you are talking about?

I don't need to read that, but, I do get that you wanted to mention HDMI TV cables, which have nothing to do with this topic. Although, yes indeed, since HDMI is digital, what cables you have don't matter too much. This is not the case with a tube amp, a better cable WILL make a difference, as that's going to be an analog out. You won't be using cheap $5 mall cables with a $5000 tube hi-fi setup... you're going to buy high AWG, quality cables like Protech for that.

As I mentioned before and will mention again, I had and have mid to high end transistor hi-fi amps, along with a quad EL34 + 6N1-P amp, which can also be classified as a mid to high end tube amp and guess what? The tube amp leaves those transistor amps in the dust. The sound is much cleaner that there is not even a comparison, you don't own these things you're talking about. I do and I can do actual comparisons.
 



#36
Offline   Jefbyos

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I see that i'm not Alone anymore to not like line 6 amps ^^

 

We can (and definitely, should) talk about what's great and what's not,  but the truth is it mostly depends of the player, what he does and the band you're in. For a starter, I wouldn't buy a stack (even half-stack) for an event only, without giving a thought to the regular situations I would meet - which usually are, for a beginner,  mostly small rehearsal rooms and small gigging stage clubs.

 

I should know, because that's exactly what I did :lol:

 

(But at my times, I also was broke, and buying that old fender bassman 100w silverface was as affordable as hell - now it worth ten times what I paid for it)

 

(But my back doesn't thank me for buying that)

 

There's also the matter of knowing the gear to make the good choice. So maybe the best advice would be : go to a rental company to get something appropriate to your need for that very night, and have some advice and experience. Of you can, convince your mates to go rehearse on an equipped studio, so you'll get to try amps there as well as advice's from guys who have little experience. Trying the amps in real conditions, and trying the few great ones that are a standard in the Backline business, will be the best experience possible to make the wisest choice when you'll buy something.

 

You may also buy a combo that will be perfect for most gigs, and rent an half-stack if one night the stage is really that big... Also, there are chances that very night that some other bands are here and the gear would be shared. Or rented for the occasion, you should ask...?



#37
Offline   Puddle Of Mudd

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I agree with the above, using a renting company might be better off for the OP's case as well, since he might need to buy and carry lots of expensive equipment.

Though if he still does want the Peavey, for example, he can get a Bugera 6262, which is the same thing and can be had for cheaper than the Peavey if looked well.



#38
Offline   firekorn

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Since you don't want to bother reading here's an image to explain why tube in an amplification stage isn't a perfect reproduction of signal :

transfer-curves.jpg

https://courses.cit..../sjp46/website/

 

I could probably spent a lot more time searching for a lot of complex mathematical function and such to explain why transistor are best suited for linear amplification which is the goal of a reproduction system which is what Hi-Fi is supposed to be but i doubt it would be useful anyway.

 

 

you wanted to mention HDMI TV cables

I never wanted that at all but if you wish to think that you can read my mind, sure go ahead! but be ready to be deceived...

 

And you still didn't have answered this question : "what's supposed to be a "higher quality" sound" but we are going more and more off topic and this debate seems to go nowhere anyway.


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#39
Offline   Chris11

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As I said a modeller doesn't have to go through a power amp. You can go direct to FoH. 


I'm trying to justify me owning a Helix, and my friends and all those high profile musicians like Metallica owning and using modellers from Fractal and Kemper lol :D  Because the internet as always knows better than Metallica, Vai, Petrucci, Satriani, Schon, The Edge and all the other professional guitarists that have hundreds of gigs around the world.
 

Sorry but I don't have to justify any purchase or choice of mine to anyone. I liked it, I bought it, end of story. If I want something else down the line that I like better I just sell it and buy that one, it's that simple.


IRL I've already shown you how many big names use them already. And if you followed the trends this last year many "guitarists in forums" and IRL are starting to move from analog to modellers, or keep their analog setup and complement it with a modeller of their choice since they have gone down in price. This way they have the best of both worlds. Have you seen the Gear Page Helix thread for example? It's the biggest one in the whole forum. 


If it's working for you as I said before it's fine. That doesn't mean that a tube based solution is superior just because you like it more. Or that a digital solution is better because it suits me. 


It's a matter of having choices. I only made a suggestion and tried to explain what these new modellers can and can't do, not turn this thread in a modeller vs tube amps debate.


As I said I'm also against Line 6 amps. Not worth the money in my opinion and he will be better off buying or renting one of the amps everyone suggested. I just threw in the mix the option of modellers like a Line 6 Helix or a Fractal AX8, because they are the best alternative in his price point and he can have more choices.

 
Just because it works for me or it doesn't work for you doesn't mean that it won't work for the OP.  It's up to him to try any of the new modellers and amps at his price range and decide what he likes best. It's his money and choice not mine. 



#40
Offline   Puddle Of Mudd

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I know that the modeller doesn't always have to go through a power amp, but for stage usage, it might as well do that.

Just because some musician is famous doesn't mean he or his group knows the best, as some musicians do not even bother with upgrading their gear and stick with old strats and such.

Yes, I personally prefer tubes more and will for a long time as it seems. You can stick with digital modelling but I do want the best available, so yes, be at it.
 

Since you don't want to bother reading here's an image to explain why tube in an amplification stage isn't a perfect reproduction of signal :

 

https://courses.cit..../sjp46/website/

 

I could probably spent a lot more time searching for a lot of complex mathematical function and such to explain why transistor are best suited for linear amplification which is the goal of a reproduction system which is what Hi-Fi is supposed to be but i doubt it would be useful anyway.

 

 

you wanted to mention HDMI TV cables

I never wanted that at all but if you wish to think that you can read my mind, sure go ahead! but be ready to be deceived...

 

And you still didn't have answered this question : "what's supposed to be a "higher quality" sound" but we are going more and more off topic and this debate seems to go nowhere anyway.

Alright so looking at your picture, I'm not understanding much as to why a solid state hi-fi amp is better than a tube amp. It's just showing how much of voltage goes through the transistor and gets out without loss vs how much of it happens on tube. I'm not sure what your implication was from posting that, as it doesn't show much at all. Hell it doesn't even tell which amps are compared to which...

and yes, I did think you were pointing out towards HDMI cables, because I was talking about tube amps and tube amps DO care about the quality of the cable. Period.

"Higher quality" sound to me is better sounding sound... well, tighter bass, cleaner sound... you know? The only thing I miss about my solid state hi-fi amp was the ability to stick in a subwoofer, which is not available on my tube amp. Other than that, I prefer the tube amp bar none. It easily delivers better sound to my ears, and yes, this discussion has gone far off-topic.